I'd completely agree with that assessment. I always think back on the "Not all Republicans are racist, but all racists are Republicans" quote. A bit of a generalization, but I've very rarely found it to be inaccurate.
Trump loves the poorly educated and it’s clear why that is. They are easily manipulated and duped. Most of the MAGAs saw Trump as a way to get the libs. People who were previously given little attention were themselves “weaponized” by Trump and his fascistic mob. I do agree that not all Trump supporters are Nazis. But they sure like to vote for them. The Republican Party has thoroughly disgraced themselves; those who retain the label are fascists. Someone saying they are a Republican still wears the shame of their part in destroying a country. I’m sure there are people who object to my assertion. But it’s equivalent to someone saying they belong to the Ku Klux Klan but they’re not a racist. I don’t know how to react to the repentant MAGAs. I do know I want nothing to do with them. They not only fucked up their own lives but they dragged the rest of us down with them. If they voted for Trump, I have no interest in trying to psychoanalyze them. Whatever their motives they have caused this country to be “occupied”. The reset, if it comes, will not be seen in my lifetime.
I so agree with almost everything you said there. I still have my reservations about calling each and every person who still wears the label Republican "a Nazi." Especially those few Eisenhower Republicans that remain and are disgusted by what they see happening. But there's a strong case to be made that anyone still wearing the MAGA hat is a fascist, or at least fascist-sympathetic. I feel a little more generous than that lately. The immigrant I met the other day who bought a Trump-themed calendar I don't believe is even sympathetic to what he considers fascists. He's sympathetic to Trump, but what he blindly thinks Trump represents is "safety and prosperity." Maybe that still makes him an unwitting fascist, but it's hard for me not to retain a little bit of sympathy for people who've been swept up by Trump's misinformation campaign and simply know no better.
Thanks as always for reading and for the comment, Brent.
Thanks, Ben. I just wanted to let you know that I have enjoyed reading your work and the interactions we have had. I have deleted my Substack publication and at this time have no plans to continue. Good luck, Ben. Keep writing!
I’m absolutely sure there are “good people” who voted for Trump. Meaning, they are people who would share my principles & moral compass, and who I’d trust with my theoretical kid. But I’m not sure there are “good people” who are Trump Supporters. In other words, if someone in 2025 goes out of their way to wear MAGA garb and fly a Trump flag, GTFO. I want nothing to do with these people because I do think it’s evil to celebrate evil.
But I totally agree there are 100 reasons someone might vote for Trump that had nothing to do with him being a white supremacist Nazi. I understand the rhetorical point that “these people are not good people because those qualities were not disqualifiers for their vote.” Good point.
But to your point, Ben, like it or not, most people are making decisions based on who they think will do better on the top issues they care about. Harris (& Biden) lost that argument and that’s more of an indictment on Harris than it is one these voters.*
*note: I do have a special resentment for my family members who voted for Trump because it’s a huge slap in the face and an admission that they care more about this other crap than they do about my rights as a married gay man. They can also GTFO.
It must be so hard to have family members who voted against your very right to love and marry who you love. I'm really sorry you have to deal with that. Your parents are Harris supporters? Or did they vote for Trump as well? If I recall correctly, at least your mom seems very supportive of the life you're living. I'm glad you at least have that.
To your point above it being evil to celebrate evil, I can't help but think about people like Sunny (if you remember him from my previous piece). I don't think he's evil, and once we moved on from politics, I actually felt that he was pretty kind. I feel bad for him that he's been so completely hypnotized by Trump's rhetoric that he promotes evil. But when he looks at his Trump calendar, what he sees is a man "fighting against crime and for our nation's prosperity." It's not a belief that I think is even vaguely rooted in reality, obviously, but I don't think he himself is evil. It's a very complicated issue, though, and one I go pretty back and forth on.
Thanks Ben, I appreciate the thoughtful comment. My mom has never voted for Trump while my dad has voted for him at least 2 times. Last I talked to him explicitly about politics, RFK was still in the race, and he was supporting him. lol. I think he voted for Trump again though. But the fact I don’t know for sure tells you our relationship was extremely strained over this issue.
I agree it’s complicated and I suppose rhetorical. Calling someone “evil” is complicated and harkens to religious/supernatural or fatalistic talk (“he who shall not be redeemed”). What’s the threshold someone needs to cross to be evil? I think in this day and age we might also argue that most Hitler Supporters (notice capital S) weren’t evil, either, but just severely brainwashed. I think that’s a fine a rhetorical game, but in my day-to-day interactions I wouldn’t treat them any differently.
I’m a fan of building mental models to help me understand the world and know how to live, and, for me, if someone is an unabashed Trump Supporter, regardless of how I think about that person (“good,” “evil”), the effect is that I can’t put my energy into that relationship.
There was a time back in 2019ish when I used to debate Trump Supporters, because I thought the evil spell would lift if I said the right words, or at least after he lost reelection, but now I see these people as possessed by a demon and evil ideology. Are they evil? Ok maybe not! But again the effect isn’t any different for me.
Even as a staunch atheist and empiricist, I treat them as Christians would a Satanist. It doesn’t matter if the Satanists were amazing cooks, mowed their lawns, or loved their cats — they believe in an ideology that is the antithesis of everything I believe. And therefore, I “pray” from afar that they will no longer be possessed and perpetuate this evil on our world. And, at the very least, I spend my energy elsewhere.
I find it difficult to believe that 77 million people were so easily manipulated. I'm not saying they're all evil but Trump made his intentions crystal clear from the beginning. You would think that him saying "They're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats" and calling Puerto Rico "a floating pile of garbage" would discourage people from voting for him. But there are people who only see what they want to see. This includes people who have always voted Democratic up to 2024 and then voted for Trump then. The way they defend the indefensible and rationalise every bad thing this regime does makes my blood boil. If a Democrat had done a fraction of the things Trump has, I'm sure they'd sing a different tune.
I also find it incredibly difficult to sympathise with Trump voters who are suffering the consequences of their own stupidity, especially those who still support Trump despite all he's done to them. I don't care if someone causes their own downfall, but it's another matter when they bring the rest of the country down with them.
I completely agree. It is pretty damn hard to forgive. And truthfully, even in writing this piece, I haven't forgiven the people in my life who've voted for Trump. I don't think their votes were rooted in hate across the board, but I have a very hard time reconciling with what they invited.
Holy crap... NUANCE! I don't come to the internet for nuance Ben. In all seriousness though, this was great. You walked the line masterfully, held firm where you had to and delivered your message with clarity. Glad to see you've been honing your craft whilst I've been living in a tuk tuk.
I could say the same to you 😂 glad to see you’ve been traveling the world in a tuk tuk while I’m at home doing this boring career stuff! (I love writing, so it’s never too dull lol.) But wanderlust has been welling for me a lot lately so I can’t say I’m not a little envious.
Anyway, thanks so much for reading and for the kind words, Josh!
Your points are well teased out, Ben, but I still want an explanation of why someone who is concerned about crime would vote for a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist, and why someone concerned about the economy would vote for a serial bankrupt. Just saying.
I do at least address that first point! They simply think those charges are evidence of a weaponized justice system. I don’t buy that at all personally. As far as the second point, I think they let the fact he’s a billionaire cloud over his copious financial failings.
But if it was a Democrat facing those charges, they'd want that person's head on a platter. They hold Democrats to a far higher standard than Trump and his entourage.
I really don't think that assessment is totally fair. I know Trump supporters who are just deeply misinformed and unaware, but are otherwise loving people. They earnestly believe their vote was for a more prosperous and less crime-ridden country. I agree that the belief is deeply misguided, but not invariably rooted in hate.
Thanks as always for reading even if you don't agree.
How could these idiots not know? All the signs were there. Trump told more than 30,000 lies during his first presidency. Surely that should be all the more reason to vote for Harris.
It’s pretty hard to believe! But if your algorithm is exclusively feeding you information about how all the democrats are evil, corrupt pedophiles who are opening the borders to millions of drug-dealing criminals, Trump begins to present like the better option. I hope I make it clear that I don’t buy into that narrative for even a minute. But a frightening number of people earnestly believe that’s true.
Ok, but many of them have been begged by formerly beloved family members merely to invite a 2nd news source into their lives. If they refuse, what other reason do I have other than that they are so hateful they appreciate the cover of "ignorance."
Maybe Nazi is overstating it. Supremely hateful likely covers it.
I almost completely agree on that first point! But even then, I can understand how people get roped back into the movement by the millions of other people and media sources that promote the MAGA ideology.
And I personally know people who voted for Trump, and I haven't forgiven them for it. But I still don't believe they're supremely hateful human beings. A couple of them were people I've grown up with and seen be openly kind to others on numerous occasions. How they ended up voting for Trump still baffles and hurts me. But it's reassuring for me to know that such walking contradictions exist and not all of their votes were inspired by hate.
The nonsense I've just read on Quora certainly corroborates what you say. People believing without evidence that the Democrats facilitate the entry of "illegal immigrants" into the US and that Newsmax is more truthful than the mainstream media. You could be diplomatic and show them a treasure trove of evidence that proves them wrong and they'd just dismiss it. Nothing will change their minds.
What's so frustrating is that we can all cite news sources and graphs that run in direct contradiction to one another. Show MAGA members a graph of how much more violence comes from the Right, and they pull an uno reverse and show you a graph of how much more violence is caused by the Left. It's pretty maddening, but it certainly helps explain our predicament.
You are in your element here You answer these challenges with more grace than any
writer I have yet read.
Your spirit is desperately needed. Our side believes all the problems are caused by the Trump voter, yet our contempt and disdain and dehumanization of that voter
gives them nowhere to go.
They are not maggots
any more than we are vermin.
They have been propagandized and psychologically manipulated
into a cult. We have been manipulated into hating them.
Thank you for so generously leading us to higher ground.
Nazis , not all
Misguided , probably
Conservative ? Definitely
Homophobic ? Mostly
Transphobic ? Very likely
Short sighted ? Very likely
I'd completely agree with that assessment. I always think back on the "Not all Republicans are racist, but all racists are Republicans" quote. A bit of a generalization, but I've very rarely found it to be inaccurate.
Thanks for reading and for sharing, Wendy!
Of course Ben , I’m happy to
Trump loves the poorly educated and it’s clear why that is. They are easily manipulated and duped. Most of the MAGAs saw Trump as a way to get the libs. People who were previously given little attention were themselves “weaponized” by Trump and his fascistic mob. I do agree that not all Trump supporters are Nazis. But they sure like to vote for them. The Republican Party has thoroughly disgraced themselves; those who retain the label are fascists. Someone saying they are a Republican still wears the shame of their part in destroying a country. I’m sure there are people who object to my assertion. But it’s equivalent to someone saying they belong to the Ku Klux Klan but they’re not a racist. I don’t know how to react to the repentant MAGAs. I do know I want nothing to do with them. They not only fucked up their own lives but they dragged the rest of us down with them. If they voted for Trump, I have no interest in trying to psychoanalyze them. Whatever their motives they have caused this country to be “occupied”. The reset, if it comes, will not be seen in my lifetime.
I so agree with almost everything you said there. I still have my reservations about calling each and every person who still wears the label Republican "a Nazi." Especially those few Eisenhower Republicans that remain and are disgusted by what they see happening. But there's a strong case to be made that anyone still wearing the MAGA hat is a fascist, or at least fascist-sympathetic. I feel a little more generous than that lately. The immigrant I met the other day who bought a Trump-themed calendar I don't believe is even sympathetic to what he considers fascists. He's sympathetic to Trump, but what he blindly thinks Trump represents is "safety and prosperity." Maybe that still makes him an unwitting fascist, but it's hard for me not to retain a little bit of sympathy for people who've been swept up by Trump's misinformation campaign and simply know no better.
Thanks as always for reading and for the comment, Brent.
Thanks, Ben. I just wanted to let you know that I have enjoyed reading your work and the interactions we have had. I have deleted my Substack publication and at this time have no plans to continue. Good luck, Ben. Keep writing!
I'm sorry to hear that! Unless you're relieved by the decision, in which case, I'm happy for you. What inspired that?
Rest assured that I'll keep at it!
I just can’t think of a rational reason to have voted for Donald Trump in 24.
A lot of the reasons really can't be called rational, it's true. So much of the inspiration is deeply rooted in misconceptions.
I respect your POV, but I cannot help if I see misogyny&racism in the reasoning.
It was a big motivator for a lot of people! I’d be ridiculous to deny it. Some earnestly liked what they saw when they read project 2025.
I’m absolutely sure there are “good people” who voted for Trump. Meaning, they are people who would share my principles & moral compass, and who I’d trust with my theoretical kid. But I’m not sure there are “good people” who are Trump Supporters. In other words, if someone in 2025 goes out of their way to wear MAGA garb and fly a Trump flag, GTFO. I want nothing to do with these people because I do think it’s evil to celebrate evil.
But I totally agree there are 100 reasons someone might vote for Trump that had nothing to do with him being a white supremacist Nazi. I understand the rhetorical point that “these people are not good people because those qualities were not disqualifiers for their vote.” Good point.
But to your point, Ben, like it or not, most people are making decisions based on who they think will do better on the top issues they care about. Harris (& Biden) lost that argument and that’s more of an indictment on Harris than it is one these voters.*
*note: I do have a special resentment for my family members who voted for Trump because it’s a huge slap in the face and an admission that they care more about this other crap than they do about my rights as a married gay man. They can also GTFO.
It must be so hard to have family members who voted against your very right to love and marry who you love. I'm really sorry you have to deal with that. Your parents are Harris supporters? Or did they vote for Trump as well? If I recall correctly, at least your mom seems very supportive of the life you're living. I'm glad you at least have that.
To your point above it being evil to celebrate evil, I can't help but think about people like Sunny (if you remember him from my previous piece). I don't think he's evil, and once we moved on from politics, I actually felt that he was pretty kind. I feel bad for him that he's been so completely hypnotized by Trump's rhetoric that he promotes evil. But when he looks at his Trump calendar, what he sees is a man "fighting against crime and for our nation's prosperity." It's not a belief that I think is even vaguely rooted in reality, obviously, but I don't think he himself is evil. It's a very complicated issue, though, and one I go pretty back and forth on.
Thanks for the comment, Cory!
Thanks Ben, I appreciate the thoughtful comment. My mom has never voted for Trump while my dad has voted for him at least 2 times. Last I talked to him explicitly about politics, RFK was still in the race, and he was supporting him. lol. I think he voted for Trump again though. But the fact I don’t know for sure tells you our relationship was extremely strained over this issue.
I agree it’s complicated and I suppose rhetorical. Calling someone “evil” is complicated and harkens to religious/supernatural or fatalistic talk (“he who shall not be redeemed”). What’s the threshold someone needs to cross to be evil? I think in this day and age we might also argue that most Hitler Supporters (notice capital S) weren’t evil, either, but just severely brainwashed. I think that’s a fine a rhetorical game, but in my day-to-day interactions I wouldn’t treat them any differently.
I’m a fan of building mental models to help me understand the world and know how to live, and, for me, if someone is an unabashed Trump Supporter, regardless of how I think about that person (“good,” “evil”), the effect is that I can’t put my energy into that relationship.
There was a time back in 2019ish when I used to debate Trump Supporters, because I thought the evil spell would lift if I said the right words, or at least after he lost reelection, but now I see these people as possessed by a demon and evil ideology. Are they evil? Ok maybe not! But again the effect isn’t any different for me.
Even as a staunch atheist and empiricist, I treat them as Christians would a Satanist. It doesn’t matter if the Satanists were amazing cooks, mowed their lawns, or loved their cats — they believe in an ideology that is the antithesis of everything I believe. And therefore, I “pray” from afar that they will no longer be possessed and perpetuate this evil on our world. And, at the very least, I spend my energy elsewhere.
I find it difficult to believe that 77 million people were so easily manipulated. I'm not saying they're all evil but Trump made his intentions crystal clear from the beginning. You would think that him saying "They're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats" and calling Puerto Rico "a floating pile of garbage" would discourage people from voting for him. But there are people who only see what they want to see. This includes people who have always voted Democratic up to 2024 and then voted for Trump then. The way they defend the indefensible and rationalise every bad thing this regime does makes my blood boil. If a Democrat had done a fraction of the things Trump has, I'm sure they'd sing a different tune.
I also find it incredibly difficult to sympathise with Trump voters who are suffering the consequences of their own stupidity, especially those who still support Trump despite all he's done to them. I don't care if someone causes their own downfall, but it's another matter when they bring the rest of the country down with them.
I completely agree. It is pretty damn hard to forgive. And truthfully, even in writing this piece, I haven't forgiven the people in my life who've voted for Trump. I don't think their votes were rooted in hate across the board, but I have a very hard time reconciling with what they invited.
Holy crap... NUANCE! I don't come to the internet for nuance Ben. In all seriousness though, this was great. You walked the line masterfully, held firm where you had to and delivered your message with clarity. Glad to see you've been honing your craft whilst I've been living in a tuk tuk.
I could say the same to you 😂 glad to see you’ve been traveling the world in a tuk tuk while I’m at home doing this boring career stuff! (I love writing, so it’s never too dull lol.) But wanderlust has been welling for me a lot lately so I can’t say I’m not a little envious.
Anyway, thanks so much for reading and for the kind words, Josh!
Could always write from a beach in Costa Rica 😉
Your points are well teased out, Ben, but I still want an explanation of why someone who is concerned about crime would vote for a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist, and why someone concerned about the economy would vote for a serial bankrupt. Just saying.
I do at least address that first point! They simply think those charges are evidence of a weaponized justice system. I don’t buy that at all personally. As far as the second point, I think they let the fact he’s a billionaire cloud over his copious financial failings.
But if it was a Democrat facing those charges, they'd want that person's head on a platter. They hold Democrats to a far higher standard than Trump and his entourage.
I totally agree on that point! The standards are entirely different.
OK, low information, then. 😢
Anyone still supporting Trump is a Nazi.
I really don't think that assessment is totally fair. I know Trump supporters who are just deeply misinformed and unaware, but are otherwise loving people. They earnestly believe their vote was for a more prosperous and less crime-ridden country. I agree that the belief is deeply misguided, but not invariably rooted in hate.
Thanks as always for reading even if you don't agree.
How could these idiots not know? All the signs were there. Trump told more than 30,000 lies during his first presidency. Surely that should be all the more reason to vote for Harris.
It’s pretty hard to believe! But if your algorithm is exclusively feeding you information about how all the democrats are evil, corrupt pedophiles who are opening the borders to millions of drug-dealing criminals, Trump begins to present like the better option. I hope I make it clear that I don’t buy into that narrative for even a minute. But a frightening number of people earnestly believe that’s true.
Ok, but many of them have been begged by formerly beloved family members merely to invite a 2nd news source into their lives. If they refuse, what other reason do I have other than that they are so hateful they appreciate the cover of "ignorance."
Maybe Nazi is overstating it. Supremely hateful likely covers it.
I almost completely agree on that first point! But even then, I can understand how people get roped back into the movement by the millions of other people and media sources that promote the MAGA ideology.
And I personally know people who voted for Trump, and I haven't forgiven them for it. But I still don't believe they're supremely hateful human beings. A couple of them were people I've grown up with and seen be openly kind to others on numerous occasions. How they ended up voting for Trump still baffles and hurts me. But it's reassuring for me to know that such walking contradictions exist and not all of their votes were inspired by hate.
The nonsense I've just read on Quora certainly corroborates what you say. People believing without evidence that the Democrats facilitate the entry of "illegal immigrants" into the US and that Newsmax is more truthful than the mainstream media. You could be diplomatic and show them a treasure trove of evidence that proves them wrong and they'd just dismiss it. Nothing will change their minds.
What's so frustrating is that we can all cite news sources and graphs that run in direct contradiction to one another. Show MAGA members a graph of how much more violence comes from the Right, and they pull an uno reverse and show you a graph of how much more violence is caused by the Left. It's pretty maddening, but it certainly helps explain our predicament.
yes
thank you
so well spoken, Ben
Thanks as always for reading and for the kind words, Deborah! It really means a lot. I knew this piece would generate a lot of flak.
Ben,
You are in your element here You answer these challenges with more grace than any
writer I have yet read.
Your spirit is desperately needed. Our side believes all the problems are caused by the Trump voter, yet our contempt and disdain and dehumanization of that voter
gives them nowhere to go.
They are not maggots
any more than we are vermin.
They have been propagandized and psychologically manipulated
into a cult. We have been manipulated into hating them.
Thank you for so generously leading us to higher ground.